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#1 2021-04-06 06:08

Discussion: Why are some models not properly rigged. (And hwo we could standardize this issue)

Hello, Brains here and I got an interesting discussion for this week's/months post as this being April (And April Fool's just past). But here it is..

First off all, there are a lot of good models out there . Don't get me wrong. Sure some are made in different Languages (Chinese/Russian/Serbian) and sure sometimes the models are rigged right , and sometimes they aren't and it's the latter ones I am going to focus on..

And what I'm referring to is in fact how modelers rig their bones inside their models.. as it seems that some models have no set rules for rigging and since PMXEditor sometimes isn't very helpful, it takes a lot of times to hunt down an issue if there is a problem with the rigging. I mean right now a model is only as good as the model maker who made it , right?

Like right now I'm working on trying to fix up a model that I found on MMD Booru which can be found here: https://mmda.booru.org/index.php?page=post&s=view&id=1486
(And yes it's the Ladybug Model).

Now here's the problem. The model has a mother bone, it also have a groove bone, but I noted that there is no real attaching points to certain bones (Most notably the mother and groove bones. I mean I've looked at other models and have seen how they have been hooked up, and they work perfectly. But sometimes the model makers either get lazy or are in a rush to finish a model up (Sort of like a bulk run)

So this causes the models to really fail rather than work properly..

In some ways I wish ther ewas a way you could check out if all the bones were connected properly in PMXEditor, or that there was a way that if a bone was improperly attached to another bone, it would give us a warning that the model would not work properly and suggest how to ramify the issue.

And that's where we come to the issue that I made in my 13 Years later post.. The Lack of standardization..

There's no set pattern or rules here, and yes, each model maker has their own way, but if model A works an it' set up properly, and B doesn't work, then why is it that B Fails? That's the point I'm trying to understand here..

Anyway I would like to get ome feedback a to "Why Models fail sometimes to properly work. Is it a matter of balance, or is it an issue of no real "Sum Checking" to seem if the model will work properly..

Your thoughts on this? Le tthe discussion begin!


2021-04-06 08:40


a caballo regalado no se le mira el diente, dice el refran
la mayoria de modelos son hechos por gente que aprendio y dejaron libres sus modelos sin fines de lucro, si deceas modelos sin defectos tendrias que comprarlos . por otro lado el pmx si te dice si tiene defecto algun modelo.arreglarlo ya es otro cantar
no pretendo ofender a nadie solo es un comentario .

2021-04-06 08:56

If you look at different models of same design (Using two separate computers) you will see how the miss matched bones are and using pmx editer correct the missing or mismatched bones (Mostly mother or sister) and redo them and that sometimes fixes the structure but some are like a dead horse and my friend gives up and uses 3DCG or Blender to remake and Happy days LOL

2021-04-06 23:42

One way to find problems with a model is to go to the main PMX Editor window and choose File > PMX Info. Part of me doesn't want to recommend this, though - you will go mad when you find out how many extant models have bugs and flaws, even from people who look like they really know what they're doing. (Example: I opened my copy of MrJinSenpai's Hibiki model. It has an invalid sphere map on one material, three materials whose toon textures are missing, twenty-four bones whose parent is after them in the bone order, three rigid bodies with duplicate names and two joints with duplicate names. And this is a good model!)

2021-04-07 03:51

@Ketsuban, yeah I hear you on this one and in fact the issue I am having with the model I am working on is that it appears the mother bone and the Center bone are not linked or it's the IK bones, and this is where the madness ensues. Cause you don't know if it is one or the other, or even both. And it's not just the bones either.. Like you mentioned, Rigid bodies and even Materials are being duplicated.. and that can be a tactical nightmare to remove certain things.. And then there are models that could work but instead they don't duplicate part so that you could do some modifications to a model to make it work right. In short it's a tactical nightmare on all levels. And that is why I think the community could work together to make good models work better or even make them better than the paid models we have to shell out $$ for. It's just MHO, here that a little teamwork could actually improve things, but in some ways some folks would sometimes think they know better (I mean I work with other modders in other games and some do great work and improve on a product while others make a game worse by making unstable mods that don't work. The same thing is true in MMD. It's hit or miss in this case because some folks don't want to take the time to work together on these problems. It's all about Teamwork to sove these problems rather than just doing it on your own. I think that sums it up in a nutshell.

2021-04-07 05:03

Many of these problems are due to "bad practices" when it comes to exchanging parts since normally people only select the bones and vertices when doing some exchange of parts more commonly in the classic exchange of heads and they always forget the "rigid Bodies" and "Joints" which causes many errors.
In devianart, a lot happens with the "base model" that are shared, as I said before, those that share parts usually forget that the models also have "rigid bodies" and "joints".
I think the only way to "standardize" this would be by making the private and paid MMD, which would mean its extinction.

Many of us started in the world of 3DCGI with the MMD because of its "relative" and "easy" way of obtaining resources and using them without having to do them ourselves.

2021-04-07 05:45

@HoAy, Yep and that's what wrecks usually the models.. The Developers who try to do the Cut/Paste thign but switching out bodies and heads Not to mention body parts, an thus are what I call "Frankenstein-ing" Models. And by that you just pointed it out in spades. And usually it's either because (a) they tend to forget about the rigid bodies and joints (and bones sometimes ), or (b) they are lazy and don't want to spend the time to fix these issues before they release them. To them it's "Slap Head A onto Body B without bothering to do Parts C and D (Joints and Rigid Bodies) and thus They have models that really don't work. And that' where the problem lies. Not wanting to take the time to fix the issue in the first place. To me it's sort of like a mass production thing. "Quantity over quality" but then we have to look on what has happened over the last 18 months or so. I mean before 2020, an the Pandemic/scamdemic/Plannedemic or whatever you want to call it (Let's just call it a plague and leave it as such), people i feel didn't have the time, to do these things, an thus it was crank it out put it up done abandon and do the next one.

But now in 2021, we have PLENTY of time to fix these issues I mean I use another group an if someone abandons a mod (and there is a thing that allows people to go in and improve on it they will. and many a time they give you a better mod. But in MMD? It's not that simple. People just take a model slap it together and call it then leave it for some of us to clean up their mess. And usually that's what WE do.. try to fix issues.

Some models do work, an some do not. the real question is trying to figure this out. And maybe that's why we should as a group use "Qualtiy Control" in order to make these models work properly. After all until this Plague goes away, we got plenty of time to do things like this.. Maybe what we need to do is form a Discord server sit down an fix thee problem then re-release. Simple solution really.

2021-04-07 20:43

I'm down to helping out in anyway I can so let me know what you folks decide on.

2021-04-07 20:55

Hola la ¿reparaste? Ala mariquita

2021-04-17 06:49

Could be a number of reasons, It could have been a sloppy port or a sloppily done model to begin with, it could be a newbie's kitbashed TDA model or just some errors.

2021-04-18 09:42

@jaimeisaac, En realidad, estoy tratando de solucionar la mayoría de los problemas óseos primero, entonces si quiero tal vez un par de alas de mariquita. ¡Al menos eso es una idea!

@SamSquids404: A lot of models I tend to see both on Deviantart as well as MMD BOoru tend to be what you describe, shoddy or slipshod ports, it could be as you stated a "Kit bashed" model (where you take head from body A sweap to Body on Body B, type of scenario. But very rarely it's a cause of errors, unless the person who is building this model is either lazy or doesn't know how the formate of bones and Rigid bodies work. I think sometimes it's a bit of all three. I mean like I pointed out on one set of models the models are good, but, the language used instead of Japanese is in fact Serbian/Ukranian/Russian . But then some models (like the ladybug model shown) have bones that don't connect or are poorly balanced.. and then there is that issue with Rigid Body Rigging and setting up morphs. Morphs with Materials are the easiest to do, but morphs with Vertices and Faces of a certain part, Can sometimes be a tactical nightmare, especially when it comes down to doing things like Clothing. that's where the real issue lies here.. People it seems are not wanting to take the time or want to be able to put "Something " out there, even if it isn't properly model led. I think if people took mroe time and slowed down a bit, then better quality models could be produced or maybe teams of people could come up with some ideas to make a better model. That's all I'm observing here. I mean granted some modelers put a lot of time into their models and to be honest if they want a few bucks from em on their patroon.. It's better to have more people paying less than a one or two people paying 30 a month for a model or a motion. Business practices you know.